Early Church Fathers Equal Early Deceivers!

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Ruth116		#61	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7878 09/09/09 02:18:04	You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. So if you are a true Messianic, you will admit that Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, seen of men after the resurrection, touched and spoken to, fed by none other than the Messiah Himself. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 3. Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, 1. Everlasting Father, 2.Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. He is all of this and more.... He is Wisdom personified, Virtue personified, etc.....
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RAF Ghost		#62	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/09/09 13:32:36	Ruth116 wrote: You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. So if you are a true Messianic, you will admit that Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, seen of men after the resurrection, touched and spoken to, fed by none other than the Messiah Himself. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 3. Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, 1. Everlasting Father, 2.Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. He is all of this and more.... He is Wisdom personified, Virtue personified, etc..... And you promise not to respond to me anymore ! Whatever happen to keeping ones word?? One thing your real good at Ruth is slingling the BULL-S and falsely accusing all the disagree with you
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RAF Ghost		#63	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/09/09 13:34:27	Ruth116 wrote: You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. Ruthy makes up her own religion "Mosaic Judaism" ! LOL it gets better each time this moron writes something incredibly stupid.
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RAF Ghost		#64	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/09/09 13:37:57	proliferated entropy wrote: Good stuff RAF, I'll start by identifying the heresy, The Monarchians properly so-called (Modalists) exaggerated the oneness of the Father and the Son so as to make them but one Person; thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die. In the West they were called Patripassians, whereas in the East they are usually called Sabellians. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm Tertullians, AGAINST PRAXEAS In Which He Defends, in all Essential Points, the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity . In this principle also we must henceforth find a presumption of equal force against all heresies whatsoever- that whatever is first is true, whereas that is spurious which is later in date. But keeping this prescriptive rule inviolate, still some opportunity must be given for reviewing (the statements of heretics), with a view to the instruction and protection of various persons; were it only that it may not seem that each perversion of the truth is condemned without examination, and simply prejudged; especially in the case of this heresy, which supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking that one cannot believe in One Only God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the very selfsame Person. As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds. For a further light on this heresy and Tertullians smackdown of it, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0317.htm Thanks first off for the off handed admission that "Trinity" is indeed Roman Catholic, I am sure you can find other articles on "New Advent" to try and prove other Catholic heresis. I'll reiterate [1] "Person", or in Aramaic parsopa, which can be translated also as "face" or "presence." This is a critical term; had the Christian theology of "the Trinity" been correct, we would see this word used in connection with a "Godhead." However, this is never the case; nowhere is this found in all of the original NT. Instead, the word used is qnoma, which is defined as an occurrence of a nature, retaining the same core substance of that nature. As such, you may have three qnomeh, but only ONE divine nature. When we understand this, the relationship between Father and Son becomes understood more like the relationship of limbs of a body to the mind (Exodus 6:6, Isaiah 53:1). Limbs are directed according the will of the mind. The divine side of the Son is not separate from YHWH; "he" is the arm of YHWH, and the Word that YHWH directed (spoke) to create the universe.
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proliferated entropy		#65	[url]	[-]
Posts: 779 09/09/09 18:32:41	RAF Ghost wrote: proliferated entropy wrote: Good stuff RAF, I'll start by identifying the heresy, The Monarchians properly so-called (Modalists) exaggerated the oneness of the Father and the Son so as to make them but one Person; thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die. In the West they were called Patripassians, whereas in the East they are usually called Sabellians. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm Tertullians, AGAINST PRAXEAS In Which He Defends, in all Essential Points, the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity . In this principle also we must henceforth find a presumption of equal force against all heresies whatsoever- that whatever is first is true, whereas that is spurious which is later in date. But keeping this prescriptive rule inviolate, still some opportunity must be given for reviewing (the statements of heretics), with a view to the instruction and protection of various persons; were it only that it may not seem that each perversion of the truth is condemned without examination, and simply prejudged; especially in the case of this heresy, which supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking that one cannot believe in One Only God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the very selfsame Person. As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds. For a further light on this heresy and Tertullians smackdown of it, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0317.htm Thanks first off for the off handed admission that "Trinity" is indeed Roman Catholic, I am sure you can find other articles on "New Advent" to try and prove other Catholic heresis. I'll reiterate [1] "Person", or in Aramaic parsopa, which can be translated also as "face" or "presence." This is a critical term; had the Christian theology of "the Trinity" been correct, we would see this word used in connection with a "Godhead." However, this is never the case; nowhere is this found in all of the original NT. Instead, the word used is qnoma, which is defined as an occurrence of a nature, retaining the same core substance of that nature. As such, you may have three qnomeh, but only ONE divine nature. When we understand this, the relationship between Father and Son becomes understood more like the relationship of limbs of a body to the mind (Exodus 6:6, Isaiah 53:1). Limbs are directed according the will of the mind. The divine side of the Son is not separate from YHWH; "he" is the arm of YHWH, and the Word that YHWH directed (spoke) to create the universe. Of course it's Roman Catholic Doctrine could you explain in more detail how identifying the personhood is heretical? I am not advocating Tritheism here. One ousia - three hypostases Nicea: We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia] of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten [Gr. gennethenta, Lat. natum] not made... And those who say "there once was when he was not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and that he came to be from things that were not, or from another hypostasis [Gr. hypostaseos] or substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia], affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.
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Had2.catholicchurcha...		#66	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1619 09/09/09 19:06:53	A Word, (the Son) does not exist without a Speaker (the Father), and one cannot be a Speaker without a Breath (the Holy Spirit); just as the Word cannot exist without a Breath. Thus GOD acts as one. He does not send the Son independently from the fullness of the divine nature. It is the Father and the Son and the Spirit doing the speaking. It cannot be otherwise, since They are consubstantial in Their divinity.
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proliferated entropy		#67	[url]	[-]
Posts: 779 09/09/09 20:11:12	Hey RAF, I'd love to hear from Ruth or any others about how their Trinitarian beliefs differ from the RCC, or from what they took from the RCC, lol.
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RAF Ghost		#68	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/10/09 00:42:40	proliferated entropy wrote: Hey RAF, I'd love to hear from Ruth or any others about how their Trinitarian beliefs differ from the RCC, or from what they took from the RCC, lol. Don't hold your breath...these people don't see it when they put themselves under the pope...what irony
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Ruth116		#69	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7878 09/10/09 01:59:46	RAF Ghost wrote: Ruth116 wrote: You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. So if you are a true Messianic, you will admit that Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, seen of men after the resurrection, touched and spoken to, fed by none other than the Messiah Himself. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 3. Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, 1. Everlasting Father, 2.Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. He is all of this and more.... He is Wisdom personified, Virtue personified, etc..... And you promise not to respond to me anymore ! Whatever happen to keeping ones word?? One thing your real good at Ruth is slingling the BULL-S and falsely accusing all the disagree with you And you promised to leave, never to return? Okay Softim/RAF we hear ya. You practice the legalism of Rabbinic Judaism and okay, and I do not care how much you "CLAIM" to be Jewish, Yeshua has very harsh words for those 'who say they are Jews and are not". I know so many Jewish people who attend Messianic fellowships all over and not one of them is like you. Do you know who is? Roman Catholics and SDA's. At least the Roman Catholics as screwed up as they are, get it right about the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit being one, but the SDA's, no they deny the true Identity of Yeshua. Have at it pagan one. This seems to be a regular monthly thing with you, to come here and claim the same garbage over again, and you are the ONE who is in error. When you can understand the New Covenant then come and tell us your thoughts, until then you are nothing but a legalist bigot. One thing RAF/Softim, I have to thank you for though, is for all the attacks on me, because the LORD said, If we truly believe in HIM we will suffer persecution, and at least on the most part you are leaving my brothers and sisters alone. Thank you LORD.
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Had2.catholicchurcha...		#70	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1619 09/10/09 06:37:30	Ruth116 wrote: RAF Ghost wrote: Ruth116 wrote: You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. So if you are a true Messianic, you will admit that Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, seen of men after the resurrection, touched and spoken to, fed by none other than the Messiah Himself. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 3. Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, 1. Everlasting Father, 2.Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. He is all of this and more.... He is Wisdom personified, Virtue personified, etc..... And you promise not to respond to me anymore ! Whatever happen to keeping ones word?? One thing your real good at Ruth is slingling the BULL-S and falsely accusing all the disagree with you And you promised to leave, never to return? Okay Softim/RAF we hear ya. You practice the legalism of Rabbinic Judaism and okay, and I do not care how much you "CLAIM" to be Jewish, Yeshua has very harsh words for those 'who say they are Jews and are not". I know so many Jewish people who attend Messianic fellowships all over and not one of them is like you. Do you know who is? Roman Catholics and SDA's. At least the Roman Catholics as screwed up as they are, get it right about the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit being one, but the SDA's, no they deny the true Identity of Yeshua. Have at it pagan one. This seems to be a regular monthly thing with you, to come here and claim the same garbage over again, and you are the ONE who is in error. When you can understand the New Covenant then come and tell us your thoughts, until then you are nothing but a legalist bigot. One thing RAF/Softim, I have to thank you for though, is for all the attacks on me, because the LORD said, If we truly believe in HIM we will suffer persecution, and at least on the most part you are leaving my brothers and sisters alone. Thank you LORD. A legalist bigot-- LOL who's attacking who????
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Had2.catholicchurcha...		#71	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1619 09/10/09 06:48:08	Ruth said-Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today The law that, according to the Old Testament, God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The Mosaic law begins with the Ten Commandments and includes the many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament. In Judaism, these books are called the Torah, or "the Law." You have heard of the Torah right? You have heard of Orthodox Judaism right?
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proliferated entropy		#72	[url]	[-]
Posts: 779 09/10/09 18:01:55	Wow Ruth, so we are in agreement about the Trinity?
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RAF Ghost		#73	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/10/09 20:15:11	Ruth116 wrote: RAF Ghost wrote: Ruth116 wrote: You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. So if you are a true Messianic, you will admit that Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, seen of men after the resurrection, touched and spoken to, fed by none other than the Messiah Himself. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 3. Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, 1. Everlasting Father, 2.Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. He is all of this and more.... He is Wisdom personified, Virtue personified, etc..... And you promise not to respond to me anymore ! Whatever happen to keeping ones word?? One thing your real good at Ruth is slingling the BULL-S and falsely accusing all the disagree with you And you promised to leave, never to return? Okay Softim/RAF we hear ya. You practice the legalism of Rabbinic Judaism and okay, This is why I have no requard for you--*NONE, no I don't practice Rabbinic Judaism --I am totally against it--BUT* you will just ignore what I say, how idotic Ruth. You make outrageous claims you cannot prove--grow up dippy. I fully expect the other Dippy one to come here and be nasty all over again the both of you are shameful witness.
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RAF Ghost		#74	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/10/09 20:19:02	Had2 wrote: Ruth116 wrote: RAF Ghost wrote: Ruth116 wrote: You all do fit in nicely with many cults, the Mormons, the SDA's, JW's, and a host of others and yet one here claims be RCC and the other a so-called Messianic Jew? Ha! you are all wanna be's. Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today. So if you are a true Messianic, you will admit that Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, seen of men after the resurrection, touched and spoken to, fed by none other than the Messiah Himself. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called 3. Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, 1. Everlasting Father, 2.Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this. He is all of this and more.... He is Wisdom personified, Virtue personified, etc..... And you promise not to respond to me anymore ! Whatever happen to keeping ones word?? One thing your real good at Ruth is slingling the BULL-S and falsely accusing all the disagree with you And you promised to leave, never to return? Okay Softim/RAF we hear ya. You practice the legalism of Rabbinic Judaism and okay, and I do not care how much you "CLAIM" to be Jewish, Yeshua has very harsh words for those 'who say they are Jews and are not". I know so many Jewish people who attend Messianic fellowships all over and not one of them is like you. Do you know who is? Roman Catholics and SDA's. At least the Roman Catholics as screwed up as they are, get it right about the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit being one, but the SDA's, no they deny the true Identity of Yeshua. Have at it pagan one. This seems to be a regular monthly thing with you, to come here and claim the same garbage over again, and you are the ONE who is in error. When you can understand the New Covenant then come and tell us your thoughts, until then you are nothing but a legalist bigot. One thing RAF/Softim, I have to thank you for though, is for all the attacks on me, because the LORD said, If we truly believe in HIM we will suffer persecution, and at least on the most part you are leaving my brothers and sisters alone. Thank you LORD. A legalist bigot-- LOL who's attacking who???? This is why this site is a sad joke. We have a few idiots here that cannot control themselves and act like the rest of the people in the world--they well reach NO ONE with their tatics. I've tried to be claim and in control until they delibrately falsify what I say. Are you reading me BUDGE ? GET RID OF THE MORONS!
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RAF Ghost		#75	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/10/09 20:23:29	Had2 wrote: Ruth said-Just for the record, Mosaic Judaism cannot be practiced today The law that, according to the Old Testament, God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The Mosaic law begins with the Ten Commandments and includes the many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament. In Judaism, these books are called the Torah, or "the Law." You have heard of the Torah right? You have heard of Orthodox Judaism right? According to Ruth and some others here keeping the commandments is leaglism, then they have the colossal nerve to tell catholics how wrong they are! It's a no wonder why God allowed the Ten Commandments to be remove from all government buildings
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proliferated entropy		#76	[url]	[-]
Posts: 779 09/10/09 20:55:48	RAF, where did your doctrine on the nature of God come from, has God revealed this to you and you alone? Note: Please, do not show me contemporary figures attempting to coin a new philosophy, show me that this is something prevalent within christianity which the RCC obstructed and deformed. Nicea would probably be where it was formally abandoned, show me Christians that contended the RCC doctrine and were promoting yours if you can.
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Had2.catholicchurcha...		#77	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1619 09/10/09 21:21:51	Well I don't know if God allowed the 10 commandments to be removed. I would like to think it is people like Margret Sanger and atheists who pressured the politicans to remove them. Obama keeps preaching the US is not a Christain nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation so what's left? Atheist maybe??? I hope I am wrong, but the way he is leading the country tells me otherwise.
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Ruth116		#78	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7878 09/11/09 01:13:22	WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION. Did Yeshua fulfill that or not? IF He did not fulfill that on the cross once for all, then RAF your brand of Judaism is false. Because with your brand of Judaism, there has to be a TEMPLE, TABERNACLE, an altar AND AN ANIMAL SACRIFICE, so most of the Orthodox, and Kabbalistic Jews of today, not unlike yourself and what you proclaim on here is nothing more than the rough draft of the RCC. Since AD 70 there hasn't been any, and the Rabbinic Judaism you keep trying to shove down people's throats is works righteousness, and not Messiah related at all. Talmudic Judaism IS NOT Messianic by any stretch, even though some of the ancient Rabbi's understood verses you can't grasp. The saddest part of all is you reject the TRUTH of WHO Messiah is, and that will take you to hell, UNLESS you repent.
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RAF Ghost		#79	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/13/09 18:58:34	proliferated entropy wrote: RAF, where did your doctrine on the nature of God come from, has God revealed this to you and you alone? and where did the doctrine come from in the RCC ? Another man. I'll let God describe Himself to me not another man. Note: Please, do not show me contemporary figures attempting to coin a new philosophy, show me that this is something prevalent within christianity which the RCC obstructed and deformed. Nicea would probably be where it was formally abandoned, show me Christians that contended the RCC doctrine and were promoting yours if you can. When you or anyone else finds the Trinity in Scripture let me know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a spirit is not a PERSON.
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RAF Ghost		#80	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1870 09/13/09 19:01:19	Ruth116 wrote: WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION. Did Yeshua fulfill that or not? IF He did not fulfill that on the cross once for all, then RAF your brand of Judaism is false. Because with your brand of Judaism, there has to be a TEMPLE, TABERNACLE, an altar AND AN ANIMAL SACRIFICE, so most of the Orthodox, and Kabbalistic Jews of today, not unlike yourself and what you proclaim on here is nothing more than the rough draft of the RCC. Since AD 70 there hasn't been any, and the Rabbinic Judaism you keep trying to shove down people's throats is works righteousness, and not Messiah related at all. Talmudic Judaism IS NOT Messianic by any stretch, even though some of the ancient Rabbi's understood verses you can't grasp. The saddest part of all is you reject the TRUTH of WHO Messiah is, and that will take you to hell, UNLESS you repent. Ruth you don't know what you're talking about and never did, to bad you cannot be banned for stupidity. You say stupid things that cannot be verified. Go haunt somebody else.
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